Finally, Romney's Tax Plan released !

[Giovannoli 1st MRB]

Omg what if instead of voting we just had both candidates with old one shot pistols and just let shit happen.

haha no no I kid, that would be a horrible idea.

[Morton]

And that link proves what to me exactly? That some blogger at the Tampa Bay Times disagrees with me?

Good for him.

That it is a lie. Poltifact, and snopes are trustworthy factcheckers. Both say she could have said a number of things, since it is lip reading and that is not 100%. Some of the top ones are "Its amazing how they fold that flag." "How pretty they fold that flag" and "I wonder if they flew that flag"

[Ford 1st MRB]

That it is a lie. Poltifact, and snopes are trustworthy factcheckers. Both say she could have said a number of things, since it is lip reading and that is not 100%. Some of the top ones are "Its amazing how they fold that flag." "How pretty they fold that flag" and "I wonder if they flew that flag"

I've never noted a person making a polite comment while grimacing and nodding is disdain, then again, I'm only 32, maybe if I lived another thousand years I can witness it. Shrug.

I mean seriously, at this point you're just arguing semantics. The comment, whatever she said, has little to nothing to do with the fact that Obama is and will remain, a below average president. I don't care what facts, numbers, blog posts you shove at me, it doesn't change my opinion. Please re-read my post, the little disclaimer I put at the top of it.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Ford 1st MRB

[Morton]

I've never noted a person making a polite comment while grimacing and nodding is disdain, then again, I'm only 32, maybe if I lived another thousand years I can witness it. Shrug.

I've seen the video, and she looked mournful, not nodding in disdain nor did she grimace.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Morton 1st MRB

[Morton]

[Ford 1st MRB]

Read my edit, it should help clear this up for you.

[Giovannoli 1st MRB]

I recommend doing what my father taught me. Watch AND listen the debate but pretend you dont know the two people. (Where they came from, their name, nothing.) Only listen to what they say, and listen to both of them like you are going to vote for both. Then after they both talk and the debate is over shut off your tv and avoid all media related comments about both candidates. Idk why but it just changes how the election looks for me. I feel like a lot of the things I once thought about one of the candidates was what the media was pushing into my ears and brain.

just my .02

[Morton]

Oh I know i can't change your mind. I just like debating.

Edit: By no means is Obama a great president, however nor is he the worst president ever as a lot of my family claims. I'd probually vote against him, if the Republican party hadn't dissolved into a religious party that puts party before the nation, and if I didn't think he did a well enough job with the economy.

Also I have to go, so I won't post for a few hours. Have a good one.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Morton 1st MRB

[Mamora BAR]

Well i would put in my opinion, but then i would be regurgitating what Kirk and Ford have already explained.

I wasnt registered to vote during the last election cause of being out of country. I wouldve voted Obama at the time.

Now that im back in the US, i am a registered voter, Green party, and i'm voting for Romney.

Government needs to stop spending money we dont have.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Mamora BAR

[Dawson 1st MRB]

[Gooderham 1st MRB]

I don't care what facts, numbers, blog posts you shove at me, it doesn't change my opinion. Please re-read my post, the little disclaimer I put at the top of it.

How can anyone have a logical, civil debate if one side refuses to acknowledge facts?

Kirk, it is completely unreasonable for you to jump on M. Johnson for calling Romney an idiot even if it was uncalled for. You also can't accuse him of being ill-informed if you have no proof of that being the case. Perhaps you should recognize that those viewing the situation from afar may have a more unbiased and balanced view of the issues.

Additionally, his comment on your part is ridiculous:

Why is it that people have to justify votes for Mitt Romney when President Obama has proven nothing about his presidency other than he can divide a country worse than it was before?

Romney and Obama both have to justify receiving your vote. Just because one hasn't been the president yet doesn't automatically make him better suited for the job, nor does having been the president already imply that he is the superior candidate.

[Zorbanos 1st MRB]

Romney's whole campaign is based around the idea "are you better off than you were 4 years ago?" while that may seem like a good quetion, whos presidential policies created the global recession? Bush. 8 years of deregulation and tax cuts. that worked well (yes clinton insitituted deregulation as well, but the housing bubble was created and burst under whos watch? Bush)

Can someone fix the greatest recession this country has ever seen in 4 years? LOL. it took FDR 12 years and the greatest war the world has ever seen to pull the US out of the great depression. is obama really the problem?

Furthermore, everyone always forgets the reality of how the US government works. Romney and Ryan put out their great tax plan right? (which is not great) which helps out the middle class to recover the economy right? (which it doesnt) and they all flop around this great idea about how theyre going to cut taxes and cut the deficit and miraculously save the nation right? except that is not in their power. who controls and dictates the budget in this country? Its not the fucking president. its congress. you want to change how the country is run? pay attention to your HOR and senate races instead of the presidential elections. Even if romney is elected (god help us) he cant do shit unless Congress does it. Romney cant repeal Obamacare. Romney cant force the Congress to come to a budget agreement. Romney cant institute a unilateral tax plan him, ryan, and some conservative think tanks and wall street brokers figured out. the congress does that, and the president can sign off on it if he wants. shits not getting done in this country because of the two party system. Partisanship is ruining the way our nation is supposed to function. Romney talks about how bipartisanship worked in massachusetts. Fool, apply that in the federal government and see how that works for you.

Furthermore, plain and simple, Romney and his campaign are full of shit. He tries to call the president out on stuff, and ends up looking like a jackass. He has no idea how to run the country's foreign policy and would probably fuck us into another war we dont belong in. All hes doing is trying to blame obama for everything and call out all of his mistakes. The economy is not under obama's control. Romney's approval rating in his home state is less than 40%. largely, that is because he was elected on a liberal/moderate platform, and the proceeded to institute conservative, republican policies. The guy will do and say anything to get elected. i dont see how people can support a man who will whore out his political ideals. romney's handling of the benghazi incident further concludes that the man cant handle foreign policy decisions on a worldwide scale, he cant even handle a presidential campaign fraught with crises. do we want another republican whos gonna jump the gun and make us all look like idiots?

Signed,

A moderate American who cannot support another conservative moron.

[Peaker]

This accurately sums up Romney's ability to deal with foreign policy:

I watched the whole second and third debates, as well as parts of the first, and Romney comes off as a wishful thinker honestly, saying that everything will fall into place miraculously when he becomes president. At least Obama has the guts to say that things won't be better overnight.

[Kirkendall 1st MRB]

Kirk, it is completely unreasonable for you to jump on M. Johnson for calling Romney an idiot even if it was uncalled for. You also can't accuse him of being ill-informed if you have no proof of that being the case. Perhaps you should recognize that those viewing the situation from afar may have a more unbiased and balanced view of the issues.

Additionally, his comment on your part is ridiculous:

Romney and Obama both have to justify receiving your vote. Just because one hasn't been the president yet doesn't automatically make him better suited for the job, nor does having been the president already imply that he is the superior candidate.

I'm sorry, but perhaps you need to reread my post. I don't accuse him of being ill-informed. My point is that I want him to back up his opinion. If I was saying he was ill-informed, I wouldn't ask questions I would merely be on the offensive the entire time. All he said at first was "Romney's a liar and an idiot." He doesn't say why, say anything else, yet I'm the one being unsubstantiated?

Additionally, his comment on your part is ridiculous:

Who comments what now?

[Captain Giraffe BAR]

...Obama is and will remain, a below average president. I don't care what facts, numbers, blog posts you shove at me, it doesn't change my opinion. Please re-read my post, the little disclaimer I put at the top of it.

I think this is pretty indicative of the stance a lot of people in this country have.

The word ridiculous has been thrown around a lot on this thread- the one ridiculous notion I've seen here is the assumption that the president can have any direct affect on job creation/unemployment.

Everyone who is voting for Romney to decrease government spending should refer to last night's debate over defense spending.

[Bryant 1st MRB]

Lol.

What may surprise you is 99% of the time I vote democratic, but there it's something inherently wrong with Obama and everything he stands for. I will once again vote republican this year.

Some one who is on an identical page as me, finally

[Perrone]

Last time around, I voted for McCain because I really believed he was the better candidate. But after these four years, I concluded that Obama was the better candidate. It is true that he has failed to meet some of his promises, but most of those he failed to meet were done so in compromises with Republicans to get things he and Democrats wanted to get passed. Other promises are up in the air still and no one can say that those are broken promises, but he's kept a number of promises.

Also, it is false that Democrats had a super majority in Congress. The 111th United States Congress opening in 2009, the Senate had 58 Democrats, 40 Republicans and 2 Independents. But Ted Kennedy, the younger brother of John and Robert Kennedy, died in August 25th, 2009. An interim Senator, Paul Kirk, was appointed to fill his place and was put in on September 24th, 2009 until a special election was held to fill Kennedy's office. That special election was held in January 19th, 2010, and Scott Brown, a Republican was elected to finish off the remainder of his term. He was sworn to office, on February 4th, 2010, though he did not actually start doing his job until late February. According to the Washington Post, Brown has so far, voted 66% party line.

Right now, I'll be voting for Obama. Romney's campaign has basically run off of "I'll tell you the details when I get into office" on many of his policies.

Tax plan? Gave us generalized numbers, tax cuts across the board, big corporate tax cuts, and remove taxes on adjusted gross income (agi) on people who make less then $200,000 on interest, dividends and capital gains.

Foreign policy? Very generalized, but will give us more info on it... after he's elected into office. Not to mention that he keeps acting like he and Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu are best friends, and has stated on several occasions that they are so close, they can talk in short hand... yet Netanyahu has stated in Vanity Fair: “I remember him for sure, but I don’t think we had any particular connections,” he tells me. “I knew him and he knew me, I suppose.”

Economic policy? "I know how the economy works" but won't actually give us anything aside from generalized numbers and a promise that he can get "12 million" jobs in 4 years. He's put out a "5 point plan" but that's extremely generalized and does not go into details on how he's going to actually do it.

Immigration/Illegal Alien Policy? Non-existent aside from his "self-deportation" idea.

Also, he says he will increase military spending by $2 trillion dollars.

As well, lets not forget he's made a lot of promises in the Republican Primary that are butting up against the promises he's made now. In the primaries, he was basically for every hard core conservative idea, like making abortion illegal. Since heading into being the favored to win the Republican primary, his stances has become more moderate. But that simply leads to a question... What promises will he actually keep?

, Romney now states he will not.

, and that states should be deciding for themselves. I don't believe states should determine whether or not abortion should be legal or illegal, it is not a state issue, it is a national issue, and thus should be decided on a national level, not a state level. As well, he was also for the return of Don't Ask Don't Tell, enforcing the Defense Against Marriage Act, and basically sounds like he'll do exactly what Bush did in Iraq, find any excuse to invade.

I might not be a mathematician or an economist, but I can tell you this, Romney's numbers don't add up. He'll screw this country over if he's elected in favor of the rich. Because there's no way he can slash taxes across the board, add $2 trillion to the budget, and balance the budget by closing some loop holes and deductions (which he's basically refused to tell us what he's going to close and what he's going to keep by not answering questions regarding this issue) and balance the budget and reduce the debt.

Oh, and by the way, Ford, I'd like to ask, how is it that if you don't have facts to back up your thinking, you call it logic? Logical reasoning is something you come out to when you use the factual information of. You cannot sit there and say that you've got nothing to back up your reasoning, then call your reasoning logical reasoning... semantics, I know. But, that's the issue here, your 'logical reasoning' isn't supported by real hard facts. I'm not trying to attack you, simply your reasoning behind your 'logic'.

Lets start with the finger pointing shall we. When Obama came into office, months after the economy crashed, you had the conservative portion of the media immediately begin to re-write history. The fact is that it was Bush policies that helped to lead to the housing bubble and bursting of said bubble; it was Bush policies that helped to put us so deeply in debt ($11 trillion when Bush left office); it was also Bush who kick started the bailouts by basically buying Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac and then the auto bailouts that started under him. But if you listen to Republicans, the conservative media, and many in the "liberal/mainstream media", they paint a picture completely different from reality. The months before Obama was sworn in, over a million people lost their jobs, but many people even today try to paint the economy months before Obama as if they were doing great and nothing was wrong. When you've got this kind of misinformation that is actually believed by many people in this country, you have to keep pointing out the truth, otherwise the lie will be written down as the truth.

I have never crossed my heart during the National Anthem. I know a lot of hard core Republicans today who I've never once seen crossing their heart during the National Anthem. Under George W. Bush, I stopped crossing my heart and saying the pledge during the Pledge of Allegiance because of his illegal actions against Iraq and his use of torture... excuse me, "enhanced interrogation techniques". Does that make me a bad American? No. Does it make anyone who doesn't cross their heart or even say the Pledge a bad American? No, it does not. I'm sure right now there are a number of people who are doing the same as me and stopped crossing or saying the Pledge of Allegiance with Obama in office. Does that make them bad Americans? Nope, not one bit. Frankly, I'm for removing the phrase "Under G-d" because it was originally not in the pledge until Eisenhower came in and put it in there in an attempt to differentiate between the USA and USSR. As well, how many people who say the Pledge of Allegiance, or cross their hearts during the National Anthem, actually mean what they are doing? I can tell you back in high school, most kids couldn't give more then a rat's arse about the pledge or the National Anthem. And I've found myself wondering, how many people who are patriotic, are really acting?

As for your statement on Obama ruining foreign policy, that's total malarkey! Under Bush, our relations across the world were completely trashed, especially in the Middle East. But, we also had lost a lot of prestige with all of Europe, Russia, China, Japan, Mexico, South America, Africa, and Austrilia. There were a lot of anti-American groups popping up because of Bush policy. Now, under Obama, we've repaired some of our image, and our relations with many countries around the world. Of course there is still a lot of work to do, but Obama did not destroy or ruin our image, Bush did.

Also, if you'd bother to actually watch C-Span during major issues being brought to the floor of Congress, you'd probably see a lot of Republican Obstructionism. Sadly, you, and many in our nation have been mislead by false information spread throughout the media by the ultra-conservative group within the media.

I don't expect anyone to change their opinion or their vote if they've already decided. But these are some of the facts that have been ignored.

[Morton]

Well said.

[Captain Giraffe BAR]

Some one who is on an identical page as me, finally

I challenge you to name what it is. What is inherently wrong with him?

[Peaker]

Perrone, respect.

[Takel 1st MRB]

Perrone, respect.

agreed. that is exactly how everybody should be posting

[Zorbanos 1st MRB]

Lets start with the finger pointing shall we. When Obama came into office, months after the economy crashed, you had the conservative portion of the media immediately begin to re-write history. The fact is that it was Bush policies that helped to lead to the housing bubble and bursting of said bubble; it was Bush policies that helped to put us so deeply in debt ($11 trillion when Bush left office); it was also Bush who kick started the bailouts by basically buying Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac and then the auto bailouts that started under him. But if you listen to Republicans, the conservative media, and many in the "liberal/mainstream media", they paint a picture completely different from reality. The months before Obama was sworn in, over a million people lost their jobs, but many people even today try to paint the economy months before Obama as if they were doing great and nothing was wrong. When you've got this kind of misinformation that is actually believed by many people in this country, you have to keep pointing out the truth, otherwise the lie will be written down as the truth.

thank you

[M. Johnson 1st MRB]

[Kabasares]

Thank you, Perrone. Well said.

[Dawson 1st MRB]